Maybe this is a stupid question but how do we decide between the long term best and the short term fix? Or, if we want to get there, where do we go from here?
For example, if some of our church music is pretty weak and we want to improve it (particularly making it more attractive to the under 40s) and eventually we want to chant the Psalms, do we just do it, introduce Psalm practice, start on some metrical Psalms, or give up on the whole thing and buy Spring Harvest 07, or what?
Or take the Sunday School. If we want children to be in church with their parents as much as possible, do we spend lots of time and energy on having a great Sunday school so that we can have lots of kids to send out to it?
I know, it all depends and we must distinguish. But it feels like giving up on long term goals for the sake of short term expediecy. Maybe its time for a cuppa.
Wednesday, September 05, 2007
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10 comments:
Well I'm all for the long-term solution with the short-term hardships. You could call this the HTL model, perhaps?
Really? So would you go for Lord's Supper every week from now on, robes, incense, 50% of songs chanted Pss, and no Sunday School for the over 11s in the main service? Sounds like the kind of change that might require 2 generations - or several 100?
Mark, can you just spell out the advantage of robes, incense and no Sunday school for over 11s. Why is this your long term goal?
Thanks,
Michael
Robes and incense because they are seen as good things for worship in the Bible, both in the first part and in the book of the Revelation.
I've talked a bit more about youth and children's work startegy on this blog b4. As little Sunday school in the main church service as possible as we want the whole family of God to be together. Let's not excommunicate the kids. At least 11 year olds should be able to cope with and benifit (at least a bit) from a decent sermon.
Hope that helps, Michael. Do feel free to ask again.
Always I think we have to bear in mind the dynamic of being an assistant minister. You cannot try to set a direction for your church which is out of step with the senior pastor.
Therefore there is an element of working as best as you can towards his vision.
Ros's comment works only if you are in charge.
I'm still not convinced on robes and incense.
On Sunday school, why only over-11s? Surely the long-term goal is every child joining in the covenant renewal, with provision made for sound-linked room for real tinies who don't know when they're being noisy.
Michael, the no Sunday school for any kiddies is partly appreciating the American model, where you have age-specific Sunday school for everyone, including adults, before the service. But the service itself is for the whole family of God, whatever their age. This does not mean it's a family service as we know them, but that young children learn to sit quietly, and as they grow older, gradually take in more and more of the service.
For those who argue children can't sit still like that, they do apparently at Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho and elsewhere. I understand Chessington Evangelical Church in Surrey is starting this model.
This is also one of the many arguments in favour of a more formalised liturgy. Even very young children learn and repeat and acclimatise with set liturgy. See Matthew Mason's recent post on intellect and habit.
Jeffers, yes, of course. John is the boss and I'm not about to start a revolution. But it is an issue.
If I'm given a responsibility for something, which approach if the boss is happy with either.
The whole thing is also complicated of course by the fact that d v we will only be here for 3 or 4 yrs.
And as you say it will be more acute if one is the senior or only pastor and its more of your job to give a lead on these things.
What do we do on the 1st Sunday in our new parish as the Vicar?!
One thought is do things in your own life and family which provoke questions.
Eg, "vicar, why does your son not go out to Sunday school with the rest of the children?"
"Vicar, why is it that you never shop/eat out/go to the pub on Sundays?"
"Vicar, why don't you have Fairtrade tea and coffee at home?"
"Vicar, why isn't your daughter starting school in September?"
This might appear cowardly, but particularly if you are new to a church, when others question you it gives you licence to say things which will challenge others without it looking like you're deliberately taking them on - after all, they asked the question.
There may, after all, be plenty of other (possibly more important)issues where you want to reserve the right to be more aggressive.
Hardly cowardly. I think home schooling and "fair" trade are the kind of thing that people can get terribly irate about.
But I'm sure you're right about personal example and family life being crucial. You can govern yourself and your house much more (and more rightly) than you can command or persude others.
I guess this also makes sharing your life, practicing hospitality so key.
So maybe we should get some people round to our house to sing Psalms rather than set up an extra meeting at church? Or maybe give them Sunday lunch and invite them to join our family sing song afterwards? Revolution one family at a time.
Surreal as this may seem, I think Marc's idea of having people round for a nice meal, with a little chanting afterwards, is a helpful one.
Some people here may have seen the debate on Daniel Newman's blog on psalm chanting. I suspect some of the problems with it might possibly be reduced, if it was gently introduced in the way described, in a domestic setting, initially to the more mature Christians, before being introduced in church services.
The disadvantage is that it hardly helps the minister get alongside someone and build trust if rather than suggesting a game, or perhaps a walk in the park, as after dinner entertainment, he proposes something so apparently eccentric as a chant. This is why I suggest it for the more mature Christians initially.
Michael,
Have we met b t w? Your name is v familiar. From St Ebbe's? You couldn't have been around '96-2000?
Thanks, Michael. Makes sense. Though I thinking singing together could be a lot of fun if you were willing to have a laugh and didnt take yourself too seriously and so on. It can be billed as joining in with what the family usually do and a gifted muso can lead it. The others could even just watch, perhaps?! The kids could then recite some of the Psalms they've memorised. I'm sure people would see the value.
And a little bit of excentricity can be attractive, no?
Best,
Marc
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